tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1900800634479346046.post2051997286445035295..comments2023-12-18T09:55:42.480-08:00Comments on What Sister Never Knew and Father Never Told You: Ten Reasons to Embrace the Liturgical Changes of the Second Vatican Council Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1900800634479346046.post-54080839457110861222015-07-15T08:31:00.012-07:002015-07-15T08:31:00.012-07:00In fact, to amplify my point about layered activit...In fact, to amplify my point about layered activity, this briefly obtained in the West in the mid-60s when the preparatory prayers were retained at the foot of the altar for the priest and ministers, while the people sang an Introit. What a beautiful moment for the congregation to, what does the GIRM say?, "foster the unity of those gathered," while still allowing the priest the personal space he needs to recollect himself at the altar before God and prepare to celebrate the mystery worthily. This sort of thing, I think, reveals more clearly the "full mystery of the Body of Christ," in which we are many parts working together in different roles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1900800634479346046.post-18670112650990227492015-07-15T08:25:51.067-07:002015-07-15T08:25:51.067-07:00And while I certainly agree that there are those f...And while I certainly agree that there are those for whom your concern is true, I think it's something of a classic case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater to wish the Church rid of the old rite for the sake of being rid of them. <br /><br />I'm midway through the old '66 book, "Our Changing Liturgy," and was appalled to see the side-by-side comparison and contrast of the (as it turned out transitional) revised rite with a silent, server-only-gives-the-responses Low Mass of the worst kind. Things that make no sense in a Low Mass, that interrupt the flow of the rite, make perfect sense at High Mass. He put the old rites in the weakest possible light, and although I don't think many dispute that this was almost invited by the poor quality of celebration widespread in the preconciliar Church, I think the ritual reform, although it certainly solved the problems it set out to solve (passive, unengaged participation), also magnified many of the weaknesses of the Low Mass, especially in its straight-through, linear approach, which greatly weakens the role of sacred music in the rites. Cf. the Byzantines, where layering of priest's prayers and congregational song express the Church as a Body of differentiated yet active parts. <br /><br />I think immediately of the lost potential of the silent Canon in which the moment of Christ's coming to earth is surrounded by the angelic hymn, perhaps sung vigorously by the whole assembly, rather than amplified, somewhat stylistically wanting, pedestrian English prose.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1900800634479346046.post-66877282188326924712015-07-15T04:00:57.618-07:002015-07-15T04:00:57.618-07:00well, you obviously agree with Mr Kwasniewski'...well, you obviously agree with Mr Kwasniewski's thesis and I obviously don't. That is what makes life interesting, What is even more interesting is what motivates our choices. My concern is not with the rite itself, despite what I see as theological inconsistencies--it well served the Church for four centuries. My concern is that the rite has become a refuge for those whose worldview is contradictory to the course the Church set for itself during and since the Second Vatican Council Consolaminihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09278560268489520757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1900800634479346046.post-9991530116197742782015-07-15T02:35:22.900-07:002015-07-15T02:35:22.900-07:00I am delighted to see this series on the liturgy. ...I am delighted to see this series on the liturgy. I check in on Pray Tell and the NLM regularly and for the most part remain unmoved. The former seems to be still arguing about the technology of liturgy, i.e. what and how we should do or not do such and such a thing and generally lacking the necessary theological underpinnings of the liturgy as such. While I agree with you about the "Ordinary Form," I am generally dispirited by its actual celebration in most places and especially when the Notre Dame liturgy crowd is in the local ascendancy. As for NLM, well, the types of articles to which you refer strike me as little more than pedantic archaism and desperate attempts to provide some kind of legitimacy for their peculiar theologies and psychologies -- I have said enough about the latter on this blog. <br /><br />As for sacrifice -- leaving aside for the moment the former offertory prayers -- I must take issue. For one thing, the Roman Missal currently in effect is loaded with sacrificial language in the prayers "super oblata." And much of this was (deliberately?) obscured in the ICEL paraphrase to which we were previously subject but is now abundantly clear in the literalist translation under which we currently chafe. So we cannot play the two rites of Pius V and Paul VI against each other on this score and it does indeed seem that a double sacrifice is somehow involved in the liturgical action. It could be simply that the bread and wine are offered as symbols of the overall priestly/sacrificial character of the Christian life (about which there is plenty said in the NT) and which are about to be taken up and transformed, with our lives, into the one perfect sacrifice of the High Priest sacramentally re-presented on the altar. (Kudos by the way for your comments about Luther, Calvin and Cranmer). But I would suggest something more -- the elements of bread and wine are indeed sacrificed in that they "lose themselves" in the mystery, ceasing to be what they were formerly and become something utterly new. While this is continuous with their symbolic import I believe their ontological alteration is more than that and can properly be called an oblation as the Missal repeatedly does. I look forward to more of your liturgical commentary. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1900800634479346046.post-78568014231606737682015-07-14T21:55:25.521-07:002015-07-14T21:55:25.521-07:001. Countless Saints were drawn into deep particip...1. Countless Saints were drawn into deep participation in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ by the preconciliar liturgy. <br />2. Your hang-ups on the ancient and venerable Offertory aside (and recall that Francis' appointee to the CDW has recently called for the return of the Tridentine offertory as an option in the next missal), I'd be fascinated to know in what way the received rites are conducive to error.<br />3. That makes an enormous leap. Is grace so limited by "cultural" boundaries, whatever those are? And I wouldn't underestimate the extent to which imposing Gothic edifices and the gentle strains of Gregorian chant are actually now a part of American culture. Cultures are more like the Borg than they are like Daleks. And anyway, none of the parables in the Gospel are part of my culture. Over-inculturation impoverishes the target culture and diminishes the visceral unity of all the local churches that share a particular rite.<br />4. Latin is not gobbledegook, nor is ritual integrity necessarily opposed to vernacularization especially of the changeable parts of the Mass. But Vatican II, "concession" or no, did clearly call for the Latin language to be retained. Or may we in this case reject the Council and the papal magisterium of St. John XXIII in Veterum Sapientia?<br />5. The intact symbolism of the Sanctuary is a marvellous representation of the Incarnation, and the physical devotion we show towards the sacrament only heightens the emphasis on Christ's self-abasement to become our Food. <br />6. Irrespective of rite.<br />7. Irrespective of rite.<br />8. Irrespective of rite.<br />9. Irrespective of rite.<br />10. Irrespective of rite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com